Friday, March 11, 2011

ByzCath.org Forums

O infinitely merciful Lord, promptly take into your Heavenly Kingdom the souls of all the recently departed, including the victims of the earthquakes in China and Japan, and the victims of the terrorist car bomb attack in Faisalabad, Pakistan. We pray, O Lord our God, that they died within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. Sts. Mary, Joseph, Raphael, and Pionius the Hieromartyr, pray to God for us.

Dear readers, please pray for me, and please join me in praying for the members of the ByzCath.org forums. These forums are one place in which I am trying to find out the answer to the following question: "What led the saintly Josyf Slipyj to the requisite (for liturgical veneration) moral certainty that Palamas--who died in 1359 and is not recorded as becoming Catholic in 1355 when Pope Innocent VI of Rome (1352-1362) sent Paul of Smyrna (Titular Latin Patriarch of Constantinople 1366-1370) to the Palamas-Gregoras debate--did not die before accepting the truth of the dogma of Filioque?"

I have trouble not characterizing the responses I have gotten (in addition to other posts) from people identifying as Catholics (and Orthodox in communion with Rome) as follows. These scandalous propositions are either explicit statements from forum members or the direct logical result of their statements:
1. The teachings on "no salvation outside the Church" in Denzinger are not dogmatic; they are outdated and have been corrected and replaced with a different teaching by Vatican II.
2. How dare you correct "Catholics" who say that (1) despite real, objective dogmatic differences, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church subsists in both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church; or both Churches are parts of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Churches; and (2) Catholicism and Orthodoxy are equally certain paths to salvation.
3. I'm an Eastern Catholic, but Filioque is not a dogma, I don't believe Filioque is true.
4. Someone who dies in the state of willful and knowing "obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of Baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" and willful and knowing "refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (CIC 751) can be saved.
5. St. Gregory Palamas never attacked the dogmas of the Catholic Church.
6.
7.

Remember CCEO 905: "In fulfilling ecumenical work especially through open and frank dialogue and common undertakings with other Christians, due prudence has to be kept avoiding the dangers of false irenicism, indifferentism and immoderate zeal."

I hope that, in combating false irenicism and indifferentism, I am not guilty of immoderate zeal.

4 comments:

papsttreu said...

At first: thank you so much for all your work for the holy religion. May God continuously enlighten your mind for the defense of the truth.

Now to some of the statements made:

1. The teachings on "no salvation outside the Church" in Denzinger are not dogmatic; they are outdated and have been corrected and replaced with a different teaching by Vatican II.
2. How dare you correct "Catholics" who say that (1) despite real, objective dogmatic differences, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church subsists in both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church; or both Churches are parts of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Churches; and (2) Catholicism and Orthodoxy are equally certain paths to salvation.
3. I'm an Eastern Catholic, but Filioque is not a dogma, I don't believe Filioque is true.
4. Someone who dies in the state of willful and knowing "obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of Baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" and willful and knowing "refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (CIC 751) can be saved.


It is apparent that these people claiming to be "Catholic" may perhaps be so *formally* speaking, but not according to the faith. If memory serves me well, it was Pope St. Gregory the Great who told us about those who seem to be inside the Church, but in reality are not her members.
One will notice that there is a twofold problem: the rise of ignorance, heterodoxy and even heresy amongst Catholics of the Roman Rite eversince the introduction of the "nouvelle theologie" (professionally criticized by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange OP) and the resulting false interpretations of Vaticanum II (as demonstrated by Dietrich von Hildebrand in his book "Trojan Horse in the City of God"). The other problem is with *some* Eastern Catholic uniates (some Eastern Catholics never left communion with Rome) - mostly laity - who obviously are ignorant about the dogmas of the Church they belong to - namely the Catholic Church (regardless of the difference in rites). These people cause a lot of harm not only to our brothers in the faith, but also to those outside who are in the quest for truth.
Judging from what I have read from your blog though, I am fully convinced that you will be able to dispell their errors with the truth.

As to "extra ecclesiam nulla salus": I have written on the topic quite a while ago - also using the recent formulations on this dogmatic teaching:
http://papsttreu.blogspot.com/2009/12/church-and-salvation.html

Have a blessed Lent!

Will R. Huysman said...

My dear brother,
You're right about some of the root causes of this malady. God willing, I'm going to be a lot more devout, so that I use God's grace to do His will and to help convert heretics and schismatics.

The saintly Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange is one of my favorite theologians, even though I don't agree with all his condemnations of Scotism. Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a great practitioner of the devout Interior Life, and we need to become more like him. With the Rosary, may Mary's Immaculate Heart triumph over our hearts and over the errors of Russia, and the whole world.

At this point I cannot really do anything except "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17) to beg forgiveness for my own grievous sins and to beg Almighty God to correct Eastern Catholics who have clearly fallen into heresy. Oh how I have sinned! I am such a wicked man, and yet I hate to see others fall into schism and heresy. To educate you a little bit on the mindset of the ByzCath.org forum members as you and I pray for them and for our own salvation, as well, I invite you to read through the third page of the most recent thread I've commented on, which was just closed by the Administrator.

Here's what I said:
Dear XXXX,
I agree that this thread has run its course, and that's too bad. It seems that discussions on these topics get closed before more helpful answers get posted, because people who identify as Catholic get their feelings hurt when they are reminded that their Church teaches dogmatically (i.e., as divinely revealed) that (1) the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (see Denzinger 691; not reciting Filioque in the Creed and not believing it as divinely revealed are two different things); and that (2) someone who dies in the state of "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of Baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" and "the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" is not saved. It's unfortunate that my efforts to reach out and correct self-identified Catholics who deny the teachings that the Catholic Church proposes as divinely revealed are perceived as an offensive, uncharitable polemical attack on Eastern Orthodox Christians, "our separated brethren" (Unitatis Redintegratio §3).

That, unfortunately, is why you are not far from the truth when you say:
"Originally Posted By: XXXX
I think that nothing is ever going to satisfy you. And since this is a forum full of Eastern Catholics who do venerate Orthodox Saints whom hold contrary opinions on some papal claims that you seem to think is necessary for salvation no answer from us is going to be pleasing to you."


May God grant you a firmer understanding and acceptance of the faith, peace of mind, and bodily health during this Great Lent.

--> Continued in next comment

Will R. Huysman said...

(continued from previous comment) --->

And this is what the administrator said in reply before he locked the thread:
"Raphael,

With all due respect, you need to learn something about the Catholic Faith before you go around condemning others.

You have violated the user agreement, which said that Roman Catholics are not welcome to come here to demand we prove to you our faithfulness to Catholicism. We in the Christian East simply do not use your measuring stick, nor are we interested in hearing you tell us about it. You have come into our living room, and demanded we rearrange the furniture and re-paint the walls to suit your understanding of theology (which is considerably different that that of the Catholic Church). That is wrong.

Proof-texting without understanding is not a good thing, and no matter how hard you try or how well-intentioned you are, you are not the judge of who is Catholic or not, or who is in heaven or not."


=====

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us poor sinners! I am sorry for my sins Lord; please forgive us all!

Your post on EENS is excellent; thanks again for your feedback, papsttreu, and God bless you and yours.

JMJ Ora Pro Nobis said...

I too have had problems with Byzcath and this for asking what eastern catholic martyrs died for if it doesnt matter what church you belong to and correcting someone who believed you could pray people out of hell. A moderator then refused to publish my posts accused me of 'latin triumphalism', insulted me and said various slanders. And when I emailed admin I was again patronised and they wouldnt address the rudeness of the moderator. I wont even bother addressing the blatant heresies on their, as theres no point.